His story lives on.

10-Q Ray, for the post,

thanks Ray you find the best time after time but this is way up at the top!

So just so I am clear on what happened.
1st, God gave young Jayden deadly cancer.
Then God "takes" Jayden because the all powerful but completely absent one needs a little boy for some unknown reason.  One would think that God has no need for a 9 year old, but child labor was fine in biblical days so who cares now right?
All of it is apparently in God's plan so that lots of folks would feel all warm and fuzzy and start buying each other stuff?
That is the entire end result.
Awww. 
One family got a bunch of toys paid for!  Another waitress got a hefty tip!  Whoo hoo!
Meanwhile, the 30,000 thousand or so people that are starving to death each and every day around the planet can't get The Great Absent One to drop a single piece of manna.
Doesn't matter how hard they pray, they hear nothing and get nothing.
But in this case, God must be praised because some folks got a free Starbuck's coffee.

So what is my point?
It is that this story is really weird.
Is that how God really works?  Think that through a bit more and you may conclude the same way I do.
While this story is all happy and nice, 'cept for Jayden, these beliefs are more than just placebo and can lead to deadly consequences.
See the video below if you need a more direct story for illustration.





God must work in mysterious ways, 'cause it doesn't work in any logical way. 

Living in reality is a better way to go.
Science and evidence based thinking works far better than woo woo.

I know I know, posting such heresy on a NASCAR site is pure lunacy!
But heck, it was some weeks back that the prayer before a race was thanking God for FedEx.
Who am I to suggest it is all bullshit.

I can see my reps drop into negative territory already, but hoping some reason prevails.
Whatever.
I just wish folks would think this stuff through a bit more.

TalladegaTom wrote:

So just so I am clear on what happened.
1st, God gave young Jayden deadly cancer.
Then God "takes" Jayden because the all powerful but completely absent one needs a little boy for some unknown reason.  One would think that God has no need for a 9 year old, but child labor was fine in biblical days so who cares now right?
All of it is apparently in God's plan so that lots of folks would feel all warm and fuzzy and start buying each other stuff?
That is the entire end result.
Awww. 
One family got a bunch of toys paid for!  Another waitress got a hefty tip!  Whoo hoo!
Meanwhile, the 30,000 thousand or so people that are starving to death each and every day around the planet can't get The Great Absent One to drop a single piece of manna.
Doesn't matter how hard they pray, they hear nothing and get nothing.
But in this case, God must be praised because some folks got a free Starbuck's coffee.

So what is my point?
It is that this story is really weird.
Is that how God really works?  Think that through a bit more and you may conclude the same way I do.
While this story is all happy and nice, 'cept for Jayden, these beliefs are more than just placebo and can lead to deadly consequences.
See the video below if you need a more direct story for illustration.





God must work in mysterious ways, 'cause it doesn't work in any logical way. 

Living in reality is a better way to go.
Science and evidence based thinking works far better than woo woo.

I know I know, posting such heresy on a NASCAR site is pure lunacy!
But heck, it was some weeks back that the prayer before a race was thanking God for FedEx.
Who am I to suggest it is all bullshit.

I can see my reps drop into negative territory already, but hoping some reason prevails.
Whatever.
I just wish folks would think this stuff through a bit more.

No Tom ....
I think the prayer was definitely thanking UPS and another one for the Discount Double Check guys who were praying for Dikta and Da Bears in victory!  No reason McDonald's and Starbucks can't get in on the action either, right?

First Off I do believe in God and my God = he/she is Kind and Caring.  But the one thing God gave all of us is Freewill.   This also gives us all freedom to think for ourselves independently.  Even the Scopes Trial recognized FREEWILL.  But You choose your belief and I choose mine.  

When I was in College (Methodist affiliated) religion courses were mandatory.  The last elective class I took to get a minor in Religion was a (500) level course entitled the Electronic Church.  This was just before the fall of Jim and Tammy Baker - but it really opened my eyes to religion and the less than religious Swagert's, Falwell's, Robertson's, and Ernest (Heal the)  along with others. 

In fact and I would bet you know this:  More People have been killed because of and/or over Religion than any other reason.  Well just look at wars and religious beliefs and add the numbers up and you will see. 

But from a recruitment standpoint could you tell me about the numbers of Virgins I could be promised one more time please?  (Just Kidding).  

I respect your right to think freely regardless of my position.   What is in my Heart is my business!

Best Wishes in all your endeavors!!!  Oh and I am giving you a plus one on reputation - A NASCAR Site is not exactly the best place to proclaim being an Atheist.  But I must admit Most Atheist that I know are very knowledgeable about the Bible and Religion.

The ones that scare me the most are the ones that proclaim they are Christians like the Members of the:  Westboro Baptist Church from Topeka, KS and others that duplicate that mindset!

Safe travels and Peace to you my Friend!!

CF

ComancheFlyer wrote:

TalladegaTom wrote:

So just so I am clear on what happened.
1st, God gave young Jayden deadly cancer.
Then God "takes" Jayden because the all powerful but completely absent one needs a little boy for some unknown reason.  One would think that God has no need for a 9 year old, but child labor was fine in biblical days so who cares now right?
All of it is apparently in God's plan so that lots of folks would feel all warm and fuzzy and start buying each other stuff?
That is the entire end result.
Awww. 
One family got a bunch of toys paid for!  Another waitress got a hefty tip!  Whoo hoo!
Meanwhile, the 30,000 thousand or so people that are starving to death each and every day around the planet can't get The Great Absent One to drop a single piece of manna.
Doesn't matter how hard they pray, they hear nothing and get nothing.
But in this case, God must be praised because some folks got a free Starbuck's coffee.

So what is my point?
It is that this story is really weird.
Is that how God really works?  Think that through a bit more and you may conclude the same way I do.
While this story is all happy and nice, 'cept for Jayden, these beliefs are more than just placebo and can lead to deadly consequences.
See the video below if you need a more direct story for illustration.





God must work in mysterious ways, 'cause it doesn't work in any logical way. 

Living in reality is a better way to go.
Science and evidence based thinking works far better than woo woo.

I know I know, posting such heresy on a NASCAR site is pure lunacy!
But heck, it was some weeks back that the prayer before a race was thanking God for FedEx.
Who am I to suggest it is all bullshit.

I can see my reps drop into negative territory already, but hoping some reason prevails.
Whatever.
I just wish folks would think this stuff through a bit more.

No Tom ....
I think the prayer was definitely thanking UPS and another one for the Discount Double Check guys who were praying for Dikta and Da Bears in victory!  No reason McDonald's and Starbucks can't get in on the action either, right?

First Off I do believe in God and my God = he/she is Kind and Caring.  But the one thing God gave all of us is Freewill.   This also gives us all freedom to think for ourselves independently.  Even the Scopes Trial recognized FREEWILL.  But You choose your belief and I choose mine.  

When I was in College (Methodist affiliated) religion courses were mandatory.  The last elective class I took to get a minor in Religion was a (500) level course entitled the Electronic Church.  This was just before the fall of Jim and Tammy Baker - but it really opened my eyes to religion and the less than religious Swagert's, Falwell's, Robertson's, and Ernest (Heal the)  along with others. 

In fact and I would bet you know this:  More People have been killed because of and/or over Religion than any other reason.  Well just look at wars and religious beliefs and add the numbers up and you will see. 

But from a recruitment standpoint could you tell me about the numbers of Virgins I could be promised one more time please?  (Just Kidding).  

I respect your right to think freely regardless of my position.   What is in my Heart is my business!

Best Wishes in all your endeavors!!!  Oh and I am giving you a plus one on reputation - A NASCAR Site is not exactly the best place to proclaim being an Atheist.  But I must admit Most Atheist that I know are very knowledgeable about the Bible and Religion.

The ones that scare me the most are the ones that proclaim they are Christians like the Members of the:  Westboro Baptist Church from Topeka, KS and others that duplicate that mindset!

Safe travels and Peace to you my Friend!!

CF

CF my hat is off to you for your opinion, and respecting Tom's opinion that is what makes this country special is our rights to speak our opinions whatever they may be,where ever we may be even in a Nascar message board

Eh, it's the off-season.  It's a fun discussion imho.


"But the one thing God gave all of us is Freewill."

Ah, the 'freewill' thing.

It seems really cruel for 'God' to be so utterly vague about something so apparently important that millions of people get confused over the mis-information and start killing each other over it.
There are far too many religions around who each claim divine intervention but come to different conclusions.
They can't all be right. 
My point there is that if 'god' actually did exist, then clearly there should be some universal understanding across the board.  There isn't.


On the freewill point directly, to call that decision 'free' is kinda odd.
The choice, as given from the Christian point of view anyway, is to accept this thing or you are condemned to hell/separation/eternal damnation depending on who you are talking to at the time etc.
I call that a veiled threat and is the sort of thing dictators decree.

I'll post a short vid of the late great Christopher Hitchens on free will.

*Tom*... I'd have to say not only do you not understand free will but also don't understand religion in general. Christopher Hitchens would appear to be a modern day snake oil salesman who made a living by finding a group of like minded followers and being able to sell them on his opinion or reinforcing theirs and then in turn selling them some books and stuff. You make some valid points concerning your religion of Atheism but miss the point of other religions... you seem to get stuck in the details. I consider myself to be a Christian but don't believe for one moment that if I find reason to doubt many things in the bible (old testament) as being entirely accurate it will effect my chances of finding an after life/heaven. My beliefs are not founded in whether the red sea actually parted .... it's in my personal relationship with God. Many religions are based on belief and faith that there is a higher power.... and to me my beliefs and their's are the same. I don't care if your a Muslim... Hindu.. etc .... I care about who you are as a person.

I don't understand how you feel it's OK to bring your religion here to try to make your point... but find it necessary to offer a rebuttal anytime someone mentions Christ. I think you need much more faith to be an Atheist than I do to keep my faith as a Christian. My opinion is that your missing out on something that's available to everyone to embrace regardless of under what banner they want to have the relationship. It would appear that you and Christopher Hitchens backgrounds are somewhat similar (I've read your biography) so I can see where you would be a candidate to be a follower but would hope at some point you would follow a similar path as Peter Hitchens.... Christophers brother. Everyone has the mindset to embrace the thought of a God/ higher being and can either accept or reject the idea and try to live in a Godly manner... it's their free will. Various religions doing things that are against Gods will and proclaiming them to be what God wanted has nothing to do with religion.

*Merry Christmas Tom*

Hi Speedbump.
Please allow me to address a few things from your reply.
First, atheism is NOT a religion.  It is no more a religion than golf is a religion.
Some may play golf religiously, but no one prays to a golf god…. oh wait on that.  I HAVE prayed to the golf god!   It doesn't answer either.   
But seriously though, atheism simply means that I/we are not convinced of an actual god or gods.
We're just not convinced that one or any actually exist.  That's it.  Nothing more.
Faith, by definition is a belief in something without evidence.
We look, but something that should be as obvious as a god eludes our detection.
It apparently goes out of its way for some stupid reason to remain mysterious.

I appreciate your openness to other faiths and ideas.
You mentioned that you don't care whether one is a Muslim, Hindu etc.  That is noble and agreeable.
It does however continue to raise the point that there ARE differing views of something that should be universally the same.  That alone should raise a red flag.


I guess I have a larger gripe about your next part.

"I don't understand how you feel it's OK to bring your religion here to try to make your point... but find it necessary to offer a rebuttal anytime someone mentions Christ."

First off, I did not start the thread.
I merely pointed out the utter silliness of the logic behind it.
Surely you would agree that the outcome of the video vs the reality of the world IS rather odd.  
Is that REALLY how god, your god in particular, works?

Secondly, when I reply to woo woo or god claims of any kind, am I just using the free will I was apparently given to question the validity of these things?    

I guess here is where you can explain what about the free will point I am not getting.

I dunno, the folks that try to live in a "Godly manner" like the folks from Westboro Baptist Church for example don't strike me as a great example to follow.
They would disagree but since there is no clear directive from the great absent one, who's to know?
And more importantly HOW does one know such a thing?


"Various religions doing things that are against Gods will and proclaiming them to be what God wanted has nothing to do with religion"

On this point, I am completely dumbfounded.  I can only assume you made a typo of some kind here.
That is the very essence of religion.
How does ANY religion or person KNOW what god's will actually is?  That comes from religious doctrine or various interpretations of them eh?
THEY (other religions) say they have received divine intervention JUST like the Christian leaders and like so many others have claimed.

Tom I just figured since your group of non-believers had Books, Tapes, Preachers, web sites, churches and such there seems to be no difference between atheists or any other organized religious group. You obviously have beliefs/ views concerning religion ... and it would seem to me that for some Atheists it has turned into their focus. What else does an atheist do.... besides ponder the meaning of life.  If you are a member of the VFW, lions club, Ducks unlimited etc people don't confuse these organizations with a religious group..... and they actually do things to help. I just don't see where most atheist could convince others they were not a religion or serve any purpose. 

Merry Christmas Tom

Which came first...

The chicken or the egg?

Actually, the egg came first.
There were eggs before there were chicken eggs  

Speedbump, the idea of atheism is catching on.
What you are seeing by way of books, lectures, and debates is just a result of more people advancing the topic.
It is safe to say that 'we' see the damage done in the name of religion/God around the world and here at home.  Many are trying to stop the carnage by a stiff application of reason.
The anti-gay meme spread in Uganda for example, driven by American 'missionaries', has caused GREAT harm to their society.  Gays have become targets very similar to a witch hunt over there now with tragic and violent endings.
I'm confident that you do not agree that we should kill all the gays based on the Bible do you?
Yet, that is what was 'preached' and that powerful and deadly meme has now taken root.
It certainly seems clear to me that putting a stop to that kind of nonsense does serve a good purpose.

What do atheists do?  Well, we get to sleep in on Sunday's but really, we're just like everyone else.
We do not use pancake breakfasts to indoctrinate poor folks, because we do not own a building on every corner holding services.
And btw, if "atheism" WERE a religion, would you be OK with us getting the tax benefits that other organizations receive?
Could we also get a "parsonage exemption" so that my home can be tax free?
 
As a side note, on my overpriced DirectTV package, I have over a dozen "God" channels.  Seriously.  Most of them 24/7. 
I am unaware of any regular TV programming or channels available that are all atheist all the time.
The point is that there is nothing to 'preach'.  We are not making any claims.  We are just trying to sort out those made by the believers. 

This video below is one of my all time favorites.
Yes, it has toilet humor, but it does make me laugh.  I hope you find it as funny and entertaining as I do.
More importantly, I hope ya'll get the gist of the message.
We are all better off if folks everywhere would stop thinking like Cooter and start thinking critically.

Tom... I didn't watch the video ... I don't really care to learn more about the Atheist religion. Don't take this personally... I wouldn't have watched were it something informing others of satanic worship, what the Westboro Baptist church believes or something concerning the doctrine of Al Qaeda. You say all Atheism is about is non-belief in God... I'll stop there.... enough said! Actually everything I cared to say about the subject of religion was in my first post and I'm pretty sure most who read it got the message I attempted to make. I know you have your talking points that you would love to expand upon from the atheist point of view... but we're back to your and my views being personal.

I respect your right to have any views concerning religion that you want. My only contention here was you jumping into someone else's post to express your views. You kind of stepped all over them. I'd suggest when you feel a need to tell your own heart warming story about how the Atheists have come together to help the needy... or are comforting someone during a crisis... maybe celebrating a new scientific discovery ... just start your own thread and I'm sure others will show support. I have no problem with you starting your own thread and would hope others wouldn't bring their beliefs/ non beliefs into your thread.

It looks like "atheists don't do pancake breakfasts" might have to come off your list of talking points (see below) if the atheist non-church church has it's way. One thing about it if atheists do start non-churches then other denominations can take a turn at criticizing their attempts to help mankind when things don't go just exactly as planned.... LOL

Merry Christmas Tom

http://portland.firstchurchofatheism.org/about-us/

About the First Church of Atheism (FCA)
(from firstchurchofatheism.com)
If we are able to build a real church, we would offer a place for newly-realized atheists to come for support. We could offer advice on how to “come out” to family and friends, how to deal with discrimination at work or in the government, etc. We would, at the very least, be a place for the new atheist to feel safe, to meet people who understand.
If someone in our congregation had something tragic happen, we could all come together to support them with casseroles and babysitting and pancake breakfast fundraisers. When a couple marries, we could provide an appropriate place for them to have their ceremony. Funerals could be held in a more loving and supportive environment than a funeral home. New babies could be welcomed with naming ceremonies, and members would gather to donate clothes and toys. Our youth group would take children on educational nature expeditions and star-gazing trips. 

Wait a second.  I feel it necessary to jump in here.  (Bump, you know I have the utmost respect for you - so please don't take this wrong)

Atheism is NOT a religion.  Simply put, it's a 'way of thinking'. That's my definition and I believe it to be acceptable by those who state themselves to be atheists- but it is not a religion and continuing to call it a religion won't make it one.  Lack of tolerance throughout history, propagated far too often by religions, has been the cause of much death and suffering. And it continues to be so today. The minimum level of tolerance we can show here would be to allow a group of people to define themselves. If Tom, being an atheist, says atheism is not a religion how about we be tolerant to that and not try to put him in a box he wishes to be no part of.  The debate immediately smells of intolerance from the get-go when we won't even let him define himself.

"If you like your god, you can keep your god. Period."
To each his own.

Speedbump.
Please watch the caveman video.  It really will make you laugh.
I sincerely mean no harm.
It has no references to atheism or god(s) or religion.  It is not trying to de-convert you or anything of the sort.
It really has more to do with HOW one thinks.
It IS funny.
I can imagine some conversation like that occurring at some point a very long time ago.

My favorite quote by Cooter ~ "… it worked every time 'cept them few times that it didn't."  LMAO!

Once one sees how Cooter arrives at that quote, folks with working brains are already chuckling heartily no matter what their current belief.  Unless of course, one thinks like Cooter.

Tom ... I watched the video and it was very amusing....   I find my views to be somewhere between Ogg and Cooter which is where I would have expected to be. I do understand the critical thinking concept and haven't just blindly ended up at this point in my life concerning what works for me. I can and do grasp the scientific aspects of things but also don't feel that's all there is to it.... for me there has to be more to it. I'm not worried about de-conversion... lol  Lets part as friends. 

I'm going to take my seat at the back of the bus now.... I'm getting a new coloring book for Christmas!

Thank you for that Speedbump.
I am glad you watched it and enjoyed it.  It makes me laugh every time I view it.

My only intent on this thread was to encourage folks to think things through is all.
The world needs fewer Cooter's.

It's all good.
I prefer we that do not part as friends, but remain together as friends.